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	<title>Comments on: An unfocused babble after a particularly hard day</title>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47307</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 00:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47307</guid>
		<description>Catherine - I&#039;m really sorry.  I only just realized that I hadn&#039;t replied to this.  I did concoct something in my mind if that&#039;s any consolation.

It&#039;s an interesting point.  As you say I tend to come across stories of abuse nearly every week as part of my job, so I imagine I&#039;m more aware of it than your average man on the street.  And this documentary certainly did it&#039;s job in raising awareness in you.  I think it&#039;s a different beast than the misery memoir however.  People don&#039;t tend to stop at one of these, they consume whole bookshelves.  There has to be a point where it stops becoming about educating yourself and starts becoming a form of entertainment.

Oh I don&#039;t know, I&#039;m coming across as a real snob here, laying down dictates about what people should and shouldn&#039;t enjoy reading.  I really don&#039;t mean to do that, it&#039;s just that those books make me really uncomfortable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Catherine &#8211; I&#8217;m really sorry.  I only just realized that I hadn&#8217;t replied to this.  I did concoct something in my mind if that&#8217;s any consolation.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an interesting point.  As you say I tend to come across stories of abuse nearly every week as part of my job, so I imagine I&#8217;m more aware of it than your average man on the street.  And this documentary certainly did it&#8217;s job in raising awareness in you.  I think it&#8217;s a different beast than the misery memoir however.  People don&#8217;t tend to stop at one of these, they consume whole bookshelves.  There has to be a point where it stops becoming about educating yourself and starts becoming a form of entertainment.</p>
<p>Oh I don&#8217;t know, I&#8217;m coming across as a real snob here, laying down dictates about what people should and shouldn&#8217;t enjoy reading.  I really don&#8217;t mean to do that, it&#8217;s just that those books make me really uncomfortable.</p>
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		<title>By: Jo Beaufoix</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47303</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo Beaufoix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47303</guid>
		<description>Dan that was brilliant and so true.  I can&#039;t be arsed with reading books that make me cry.  What&#039;s the point?  I know vile stuff happens and I&#039;m sorry it does, but I&#039;ve got enough of my own to del with without filling my head with more distress that I can do nothing about.  Armstrong and Miller are fabulous though.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Jo Beaufoixs last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jobeaufoix.com/2009/01/17/a-man-of-letters/&quot;&gt;A Man of Letters&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan that was brilliant and so true.  I can&#8217;t be arsed with reading books that make me cry.  What&#8217;s the point?  I know vile stuff happens and I&#8217;m sorry it does, but I&#8217;ve got enough of my own to del with without filling my head with more distress that I can do nothing about.  Armstrong and Miller are fabulous though.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Jo Beaufoixs last blog post..<a href="http://www.jobeaufoix.com/2009/01/17/a-man-of-letters/">A Man of Letters</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Catherine</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47165</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47165</guid>
		<description>Hi Dan, Oli referred me to your blog and I&#039;ve been reading it on and off for a little while now.  (with a baby asleep on my knee there&#039;s only so much daytime tv and the news i can stomach)  Personally I don&#039;t read that type of book because I know how much it would disturb, upset and then prey on my mind - lets face it, I read about Baby P then spent about two days alternating between feeling sad and muttering under my breth about Old Testament-style eye-for-an-eye punishments .  God knows what sort of impact a whole book of the stuff would have... I can&#039;t face Big Brother anymore either, the whole thing is just a desperate farce - contestants, whether &quot;celeb&quot; or standard muppet, desperate for some form of notoriety, and the producers shamelessly exploiting this desire, pushing them into ever more humiliating games for the enjoyment of the viewing public.  Nasty. That jungle one is worse by the way...

Anyway, you also got me thinking about what people do get from these books, and it reminded me of a documentary we watched a while ago, Chosen (http://www.chosen.org.uk/).  It was a very simple film which consisted of three men recounting their abuse at the hands of teachers at a particular public school, from the start, when they gained their and their parents thrust, to finally admitting the truth (universally, only after their parents had died.)  I watched with interest, but a horrified interest.  It wasn&#039;t &quot;entertainment&quot; or voyeurism, and once I stumbled across it I felt it necessary to watch on, because the issues were more complicated than I thought and it threw up a lot of unexpected stuff - the abusers were charismatic, well-liked, they had gained the respect and trust of the whole school and parents for decades, that the victims could not admit what had happened because of the overwhelming sense that they had colluded in the whole thing, and also that their parents were responsable because they had &quot;thrown them to the lions&quot;.  The parents had entrusted them to the care of the school, therefore whatever happened their must implicitly have had their approval (they thought).  Of course the truth was that the parents could simply not concieve that this was possible and they did not address the issue at all.  So perhaps the misery memoir has a place in the interest of openness and knowing your potential enemy.  At the very least, when William starts school I&#039;ll know to discuss their child protection policy with the head, even though I think any nastiness at our wee local primary is highly unlikely.  Ignoring the issue allowed the abuse to continue for thirty-odd years, and while I can see your point that you come across misery and suffering at work and have no need for it at home, perhaps the fortunately ignorant masses need the odd reminder...

Sorry for the rambling comment - it&#039;s your own fault for providing food for thought!!

Catherine</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dan, Oli referred me to your blog and I&#8217;ve been reading it on and off for a little while now.  (with a baby asleep on my knee there&#8217;s only so much daytime tv and the news i can stomach)  Personally I don&#8217;t read that type of book because I know how much it would disturb, upset and then prey on my mind &#8211; lets face it, I read about Baby P then spent about two days alternating between feeling sad and muttering under my breth about Old Testament-style eye-for-an-eye punishments .  God knows what sort of impact a whole book of the stuff would have&#8230; I can&#8217;t face Big Brother anymore either, the whole thing is just a desperate farce &#8211; contestants, whether &#8220;celeb&#8221; or standard muppet, desperate for some form of notoriety, and the producers shamelessly exploiting this desire, pushing them into ever more humiliating games for the enjoyment of the viewing public.  Nasty. That jungle one is worse by the way&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyway, you also got me thinking about what people do get from these books, and it reminded me of a documentary we watched a while ago, Chosen (<a href="http://www.chosen.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">http://www.chosen.org.uk/</a>).  It was a very simple film which consisted of three men recounting their abuse at the hands of teachers at a particular public school, from the start, when they gained their and their parents thrust, to finally admitting the truth (universally, only after their parents had died.)  I watched with interest, but a horrified interest.  It wasn&#8217;t &#8220;entertainment&#8221; or voyeurism, and once I stumbled across it I felt it necessary to watch on, because the issues were more complicated than I thought and it threw up a lot of unexpected stuff &#8211; the abusers were charismatic, well-liked, they had gained the respect and trust of the whole school and parents for decades, that the victims could not admit what had happened because of the overwhelming sense that they had colluded in the whole thing, and also that their parents were responsable because they had &#8220;thrown them to the lions&#8221;.  The parents had entrusted them to the care of the school, therefore whatever happened their must implicitly have had their approval (they thought).  Of course the truth was that the parents could simply not concieve that this was possible and they did not address the issue at all.  So perhaps the misery memoir has a place in the interest of openness and knowing your potential enemy.  At the very least, when William starts school I&#8217;ll know to discuss their child protection policy with the head, even though I think any nastiness at our wee local primary is highly unlikely.  Ignoring the issue allowed the abuse to continue for thirty-odd years, and while I can see your point that you come across misery and suffering at work and have no need for it at home, perhaps the fortunately ignorant masses need the odd reminder&#8230;</p>
<p>Sorry for the rambling comment &#8211; it&#8217;s your own fault for providing food for thought!!</p>
<p>Catherine</p>
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		<title>By: Xbox4NappyRash</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47121</link>
		<dc:creator>Xbox4NappyRash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47121</guid>
		<description>Well, yes, there is a huge difference between a victim, speaking out, telling their story, and regaining control and some hack  taking a stab at it for them.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Xbox4NappyRashs last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://xbox4nappyrash.blogspot.com/2009/01/tragic-demise.html&quot;&gt;A tragic demise&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yes, there is a huge difference between a victim, speaking out, telling their story, and regaining control and some hack  taking a stab at it for them.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Xbox4NappyRashs last blog post..<a href="http://xbox4nappyrash.blogspot.com/2009/01/tragic-demise.html">A tragic demise</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47120</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47120</guid>
		<description>VegasDad - I&#039;m fairly confident that in a couple of years we&#039;ll have all had our fill of reality TV.  there will be a few still on, but not in the huge concentration that we have them now.

Pandora - I&#039;m not sure if it is the same psychological phenomena as caused the ridiculous scenes surrounding the death of Diana.  I suspect that was more a group hysteria while this is more voyeurism.  I think it&#039;s the same base reaction that makes people slow down at car accidents.

James - I have now adopted Gary&#039;s perspective on the serious things going on in the world.

Morticia - I can deal with adults suffering, it is when it is kids that I really struggle.  I&#039;ve felt like I&#039;d like to get out of nursing for about three years now, but the only problems is I&#039;m not sure I know how to do anything else.

Xbox - I&#039;m not sure victims have a &quot;right to be heard&quot; or at least I&#039;m not sure they have a &quot;right to be exploited by publishers for the entertainment of others.  and half of them make it all up anyhow.

Lucy - To me the only reason for these books is voyeurism. They are not clinical case studies, they are entertainment.  

Just as you would not rely on the Sun or the Daily mail to give you impartial and objective information on immigration or European politics you shouldn&#039;t rely on these books to inform your knowledge of child protection issues.

For a start there have been numerous allegations that many of the stories are completely fabricated, some of which have been found to be which in court.  and even if they aren&#039;t false they are exaggerated and sensationalized.

Yes you feel sad when reading them, but just like the fear you feel when watching a horror film the emotion is transient and exists due to emotional manipulation.  

Or at least that&#039;s my view of them.  I realize I have no real insight into what you get out of the genre, and obviously your views are as valid as mine.  My intent in this post was to thrash out a few of my own thoughts rather than damn anyone elses.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Dans last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1062&quot;&gt;An Englishman in Wisconsin&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VegasDad &#8211; I&#8217;m fairly confident that in a couple of years we&#8217;ll have all had our fill of reality TV.  there will be a few still on, but not in the huge concentration that we have them now.</p>
<p>Pandora &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure if it is the same psychological phenomena as caused the ridiculous scenes surrounding the death of Diana.  I suspect that was more a group hysteria while this is more voyeurism.  I think it&#8217;s the same base reaction that makes people slow down at car accidents.</p>
<p>James &#8211; I have now adopted Gary&#8217;s perspective on the serious things going on in the world.</p>
<p>Morticia &#8211; I can deal with adults suffering, it is when it is kids that I really struggle.  I&#8217;ve felt like I&#8217;d like to get out of nursing for about three years now, but the only problems is I&#8217;m not sure I know how to do anything else.</p>
<p>Xbox &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure victims have a &#8220;right to be heard&#8221; or at least I&#8217;m not sure they have a &#8220;right to be exploited by publishers for the entertainment of others.  and half of them make it all up anyhow.</p>
<p>Lucy &#8211; To me the only reason for these books is voyeurism. They are not clinical case studies, they are entertainment.  </p>
<p>Just as you would not rely on the Sun or the Daily mail to give you impartial and objective information on immigration or European politics you shouldn&#8217;t rely on these books to inform your knowledge of child protection issues.</p>
<p>For a start there have been numerous allegations that many of the stories are completely fabricated, some of which have been found to be which in court.  and even if they aren&#8217;t false they are exaggerated and sensationalized.</p>
<p>Yes you feel sad when reading them, but just like the fear you feel when watching a horror film the emotion is transient and exists due to emotional manipulation.  </p>
<p>Or at least that&#8217;s my view of them.  I realize I have no real insight into what you get out of the genre, and obviously your views are as valid as mine.  My intent in this post was to thrash out a few of my own thoughts rather than damn anyone elses.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Dans last blog post..<a href="http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1062">An Englishman in Wisconsin</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Lucy</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47116</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47116</guid>
		<description>Sam told me about your blog, knowing it would interest me.

I&#039;m going to be controversial here, and say that I am a fan of these books! I find them horrific, upsetting but once I start I cant put them down. 

Maybe I am a sucker for misery! especially as my current job is dealing with children with child protection issues. For me though I feel that I need to have an understanding of their lives because it is something I never even come close to experiencing. It makes me feel humbled and, shamefully, they have been a complete eye opener in making me realise just how good I have got it. And perhaps niaively I think that maybe in some small way in the future I maybe able to help. 

But conversely I am quite horrified by my interest in such a morbid genre of books.

However I do not agree with the current trend of social workers writing about their cases. That is exploiting on others misery and frankly really immoral. And these &#039;extraordinary lives&#039; programmes, but that is another issue....

Thought I&#039;d open up the debate a little!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam told me about your blog, knowing it would interest me.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to be controversial here, and say that I am a fan of these books! I find them horrific, upsetting but once I start I cant put them down. </p>
<p>Maybe I am a sucker for misery! especially as my current job is dealing with children with child protection issues. For me though I feel that I need to have an understanding of their lives because it is something I never even come close to experiencing. It makes me feel humbled and, shamefully, they have been a complete eye opener in making me realise just how good I have got it. And perhaps niaively I think that maybe in some small way in the future I maybe able to help. </p>
<p>But conversely I am quite horrified by my interest in such a morbid genre of books.</p>
<p>However I do not agree with the current trend of social workers writing about their cases. That is exploiting on others misery and frankly really immoral. And these &#8216;extraordinary lives&#8217; programmes, but that is another issue&#8230;.</p>
<p>Thought I&#8217;d open up the debate a little!</p>
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		<title>By: Xbox4NappyRash</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47112</link>
		<dc:creator>Xbox4NappyRash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47112</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a bit torn.

I don&#039;t want to &#039;not know&#039; about the ills of the world, but they can and do crush your spirit a little.

At the same time, as victims, people have every right to be heard, part of healing I guess.

The idea that waterstones has a section &#039;Painful Lives&#039; is scary.

Above it all, it&#039;s the media that have turned me off, there isn&#039;t a headline these days that I don&#039;t think is being sensationalised to tug at our heartstrings and that makes me resentful.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Xbox4NappyRashs last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://tenlizardtongues.blogspot.com/2009/01/my-inheritance.html&quot;&gt;My inheritance&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a bit torn.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to &#8216;not know&#8217; about the ills of the world, but they can and do crush your spirit a little.</p>
<p>At the same time, as victims, people have every right to be heard, part of healing I guess.</p>
<p>The idea that waterstones has a section &#8216;Painful Lives&#8217; is scary.</p>
<p>Above it all, it&#8217;s the media that have turned me off, there isn&#8217;t a headline these days that I don&#8217;t think is being sensationalised to tug at our heartstrings and that makes me resentful.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Xbox4NappyRashs last blog post..<a href="http://tenlizardtongues.blogspot.com/2009/01/my-inheritance.html">My inheritance</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: morticia</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47111</link>
		<dc:creator>morticia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47111</guid>
		<description>Completely with you on the need to disconnect front, its ten years since I decided not to train as a social worker after being assaulted on duty at a childrens home, I have never regretted this decision.  

I think part of my &#039;love&#039; of Jeremy Kyle (I know its dreadful) is because I can remind myself that those are the kind of intractable deeply ingrained poverty exacerbated/caused issues I&#039;d have to deal with if I returned to that field of work and frankly I&#039;d rather it was on tv where I have an off switch and can turn to Randall and Hopkirk Deceased when I want. I simply haven&#039;t got the wherewithal to do that kind of work anymore.

I&#039;ll leave aside the whole social services/mental health field not being given enough wherewithal  to adequately support familes and individuals in the first place discussion for another day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Completely with you on the need to disconnect front, its ten years since I decided not to train as a social worker after being assaulted on duty at a childrens home, I have never regretted this decision.  </p>
<p>I think part of my &#8216;love&#8217; of Jeremy Kyle (I know its dreadful) is because I can remind myself that those are the kind of intractable deeply ingrained poverty exacerbated/caused issues I&#8217;d have to deal with if I returned to that field of work and frankly I&#8217;d rather it was on tv where I have an off switch and can turn to Randall and Hopkirk Deceased when I want. I simply haven&#8217;t got the wherewithal to do that kind of work anymore.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll leave aside the whole social services/mental health field not being given enough wherewithal  to adequately support familes and individuals in the first place discussion for another day.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47107</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47107</guid>
		<description>I am right there with you Dan on the &#039;spending to much time on certain frivalities and not keeping up on the more important things going on in the world.  Blogging is more fun though.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Jamess last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://liayf.blogspot.com/2009/01/come-again.html&quot;&gt;Come Again?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am right there with you Dan on the &#8216;spending to much time on certain frivalities and not keeping up on the more important things going on in the world.  Blogging is more fun though.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Jamess last blog post..<a href="http://liayf.blogspot.com/2009/01/come-again.html">Come Again?</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Pandora Caitiff</title>
		<link>http://allthatcomeswithit.com/archives/1072/comment-page-1#comment-47104</link>
		<dc:creator>Pandora Caitiff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allthatcomeswithit.com/?p=1072#comment-47104</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d heard of a couple of these books, but had managed to avoid them until the January sales. I hadn&#039;t realised how scarily obsessed the country was with them till I saw a whole section devoted to them in WHSmiths!

Is this part of the culture of grief that latches onto the deaths of celebrities/royals?

I think you&#039;ve selected the correct attitude to have here. (Although I enjoyed BSG series 3. I guess that says something about my job compared to yours :) )

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Pandora Caitiffs last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://pandoracaitiff.blogspot.com/2009/01/one-of-those-review-of-year-thingys.html&quot;&gt;One of those review of the year thingys&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d heard of a couple of these books, but had managed to avoid them until the January sales. I hadn&#8217;t realised how scarily obsessed the country was with them till I saw a whole section devoted to them in WHSmiths!</p>
<p>Is this part of the culture of grief that latches onto the deaths of celebrities/royals?</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;ve selected the correct attitude to have here. (Although I enjoyed BSG series 3. I guess that says something about my job compared to yours :) )</p>
<p><abbr><em>Pandora Caitiffs last blog post..<a href="http://pandoracaitiff.blogspot.com/2009/01/one-of-those-review-of-year-thingys.html">One of those review of the year thingys</a></em></abbr></p>
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